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Post by Nightowl on Jul 20, 2018 21:41:26 GMT
Really? You have been going on and on about how could the fathers or anyone receive something from b.williamson. were you not interested to receive an answer? You answered it for you as many here have. IT IS AN EMERGENCY!! Furthermore, I question the "emergency" argument. The Kentucky Fathers are simple priests. They can educate seminarians. Fine. However, it is questionable whether they have a moral obligation to do so given that they don't have episcopal powers to take those seminarians to the next step. They don't have a Episcopal powers to call their place to Seminary, either, even though they do have Episcopal powers to educate seminarians.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 21:55:07 GMT
Really? You have been going on and on about how could the fathers or anyone receive something from b.williamson. were you not interested to receive an answer? You answered it for you as many here have. IT IS AN EMERGENCY!! Furthermore, I question the "emergency" argument. The Kentucky Fathers are simple priests. They can educate seminarians. Fine. However, it is questionable whether they have a moral obligation to do so given that they don't have episcopal powers to take those seminarians to the next step. You out of all people say that? You spend all day and night reading forums and say you dont know. Are you trolling or playing right into the b.williamson trap. B.williamson told the priests to start it in 2013. You know that. Saw it on your site somewhere. If b.williamson hides in a lititure house is not the fault of the priests. I would think you would speak to the fathers your public questions to avoid gossip.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 4:35:59 GMT
How ironic. You folks flog Catholic priests for helping the mission of the Church suffering in need of priests and then joy in the fact Bishop Williamson does nothing. Is that not a man-centered view? BW is quite a hypnotist if you believe that.
I would be interested in a conversation when the rights of God will be the focus. Until then you are feeding a dead horse called the false resistance.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 12:48:42 GMT
Machabees and Jonathan,
Would it be acceptable for the Kentucky Fathers to invite Bishop Fellay to come to the Our Lady of Mount Carmel Seminary to ordain the seminarians prior to his return to the positions of Archbishop Lefebvre?
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Post by antonio on Jul 21, 2018 13:52:28 GMT
There is a state of necessity, of that we should not have doubt. In an "EMERGENCY" perhaps some things can be done that are not normally done. Anyone can Baptize -- doesn't matter if he (or she) is not baptized himself (or herself), in an emergency. Then, if the baptized survives, he should seek conditional Baptism by a priest at the first opportunity. But does that extend to the valid ordination of priests?
When it comes to the Sacrament of Holy Orders, there must be standards, otherwise all this consternation wouldn't be here. So, when a seminarian is ready for Ordination, can he be validly ordained a Catholic priest by a bishop who has been consecrated by an Orthodox bishop? The rule I have heard is, a bishop cannot give what he has not received. Maybe the priest would therefore be ordained an Orthodox priest, even though he studied as a seminarian to become a Catholic priest. In which case, if Bishop Moran is not consecrated a Catholic bishop but rather an Orthodox bishop, then the priests he ordains will not be Catholic priests, but Orthodox priests, no? In which case, the seminarians ordained by him would have to seek conditional re-ordination by a Catholic bishop, no?
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Post by Anon2 on Jul 21, 2018 16:03:23 GMT
There is a state of necessity, of that we should not have doubt. In an "EMERGENCY" perhaps some things can be done that are not normally done. Anyone can Baptize -- doesn't matter if he (or she) is not baptized himself (or herself), in an emergency. Then, if the baptized survives, he should seek conditional Baptism by a priest at the first opportunity. But does that extend to the valid ordination of priests? When it comes to the Sacrament of Holy Orders, there must be standards, otherwise all this consternation wouldn't be here. So, when a seminarian is ready for Ordination, can he be validly ordained a Catholic priest by a bishop who has been consecrated by an Orthodox bishop? The rule I have heard is, a bishop cannot give what he has not received. Maybe the priest would therefore be ordained an Orthodox priest, even though he studied as a seminarian to become a Catholic priest. In which case, if Bishop Moran is not consecrated a Catholic bishop but rather an Orthodox bishop, then the priests he ordains will not be Catholic priests, but Orthodox priests, no? In which case, the seminarians ordained by him would have to seek conditional re-ordination by a Catholic bishop, no? Antonio What you say is very serious and this matter has to be resolved in all seriousness. Bishop Ambrose can abjure his Orthodox faith and get conditionally consecrated by a Traditional Catholic Bishop.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 16:05:16 GMT
Machabees and Jonathan, Would it be acceptable for the Kentucky Fathers to invite Bishop Fellay to come to the Our Lady of Mount Carmel Seminary to ordain the seminarians prior to his return to the positions of Archbishop Lefebvre? EM, you are refusing to include yourself in the conversation at hand discussing an EMERGENCY situation. You choose to keep your thinking in a box repeating the same thing over and over again as if the topic is discussing nothing has changed when it has by the FINAL adamant refuse of Bishop Williamson and his other bishops exposed in this thread.
EM, there are ZERO 'normal' traditional catholic bishops left in the world who will actively ordain traditional priests WITHOUT submitting to their modernism first. Zero! That in the Church is an EMERGENCY! If you do not think so, I do not know what mold you are in.
The problem is not ours. The problem is at the feet of those bishops! And moreover, all this is allowed by the Supreme Head of the Church -Jesus Christ- making another purification for everyone to WAKE-UP! For you or anyone else to keep bantering otherwise, like there is no fundamental change, means nothing to the objective order of the Church needing to survive when her bishops are actively trying to kill Her.
People get out of your complacent slumber and see a suffering Church in need. What does in all mean? God knows. We are only stating the facts, what the Church states in emergency situations, and wait for providence to change something for the better or in His wisdom how or what He wants to do. This crisis did not happen 4 days ago to now question these things. We all have been patience for 60 years. So please stop this selective thinking of the Church as to bargain Her life in a critical epic of time.
I get it. You and others are wrapped up in your own thinking. This conversation is to discuss what is this new stage in the 6,000 year old Catholic Resistance and what and where to go. Think Old Testament. Think New Testament. Think Church History. Think Persecution, the catacombs. Think anything objective to find wisdom than staying in a box just bouncing of its walls unproductive and essentially complaining one does not like the new situation at hand.
If you are not caught up to it being a REAL emergency situation is not our fault. The fact is it IS. Just the same in the Time of ABL and the 1988 consecrations. There was ZERO traditional bishops in the world that will help continue the mission of the Church without submitting to modernism first. Zero! So Providence provided an extraordinary means in the EMERGENCY the Archbishop was in. There is nothing different. Does this mean we have to consecrate more bishops for tradition in the same way? Ask God. We have not means even for that. So essentially, we are in a WORSE situation that ABL was in. There are NO bishops left in the world who will actively fight for Christ the King and His Church to keep her alive. Does that mean there are no valid bishops left in the world to ordain and provide for priests? No, there are over 5,000 Catholic bishops in the world who can at any moment help like the Good Samaritan did. The question is do they have a will to leave their selfish self and life of adulterous modernism? God knows.
Bottom line. It may be the eleventh hour for man, but God provides wonderfully at the time He see fit.
This crisis is to get the people to think of God not of man's choices you and others go around circles looking for your own answers. No, look up. That is the point of this conversation. Until you people see this crisis as a purification and a sanctification needing to remove our own will and thinking is the day we start putting God and His Church first. Not our illustrious self to solve our own problems. This is a spiritual problem needing a spiritual answer. So this political bantering needs to go into the trash. That is the narration of neo-tradition these bishops are set in. Except their modernism and authority and you can have all you want. Reminds me of the devil tempting Christ in the desert...same type of temptation; same type of outcome...play and worship the devil or sacrifice and earn Christ. The problem is not ours. We like Joshua and his family choose to walk away from all of man's golden calves so to serve the Lord God the way He wants regardless of the bantering and ridicule coming from the 'pious sidelines'.
Instaurare omnia in Christo!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 16:11:02 GMT
Machabees,
You just went on a rant, but didn’t answer my question. Please answer my question.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 16:27:53 GMT
There is a state of necessity, of that we should not have doubt. In an "EMERGENCY" perhaps some things can be done that are not normally done. Anyone can Baptize -- doesn't matter if he (or she) is not baptized himself (or herself), in an emergency. Then, if the baptized survives, he should seek conditional Baptism by a priest at the first opportunity. But does that extend to the valid ordination of priests? When it comes to the Sacrament of Holy Orders, there must be standards, otherwise all this consternation wouldn't be here. So, when a seminarian is ready for Ordination, can he be validly ordained a Catholic priest by a bishop who has been consecrated by an Orthodox bishop? The rule I have heard is, a bishop cannot give what he has not received. Maybe the priest would therefore be ordained an Orthodox priest, even though he studied as a seminarian to become a Catholic priest. In which case, if Bishop Moran is not consecrated a Catholic bishop but rather an Orthodox bishop, then the priests he ordains will not be Catholic priests, but Orthodox priests, no? In which case, the seminarians ordained by him would have to seek conditional re-ordination by a Catholic bishop, no? antonio, thanks for the questions. I have little time to answer. EM and his circular arguments have taken all my time this morning. Suffice for the moment the teaching of the Church on these matters.
First the socialist Catholics and EM alleges a narration Bishop Ambrose is not a catholic, not a catholic priest, not a catholic bishop against evidence Bishop Ambrose is.
Why their obstinance? Human respect, they feel they need to keep a brand? I have no idea and I do not care. The fact is there is a Catholic baptismal certificate of Bishop Ambrose they refuse to put in their narration, there is the fact of evidence already provided that Bishop Ambrose is a bi-ritual Ukraine rite and roman rite priest they refuse to put in their narration, there is amble evidence BY BEING A BAPTIZED CATHOLIC Bishop Ambrose is a Catholic Bishop they refuse to put in their narration. ambrosemoran.wordpress.com/ The problem is their and others obstinance like the problem of those others CAUSING crises where there is none is at their feet not ours. I will not crucify Christ in another's baptism.
Second is the teaching of the Church already explained in prior posts (please see them) in short, that if a baptized catholic receives priesthood or consecration from an orthodox doesn't mean he is an orthodox. Contrarily, there are some people who refuse to submit to the Church teaching on this matter that once you are baptized you are always catholic even if you are in hell. The orthodox perform the Catholic rite in their schismatic environment so it would be valid but illicit. As if a protestant performs the catholic rite of baptism the recipient receives a catholic baptism not a protestant one. There are a lot of nuances, issues and a whole host of complexities. I get it. The point is these detractors throw out the baby with the bath water the Church teaches to placate their own thinking. Which is wrong and is always wrong. For these socialist Catholics they just go around in circles like a broken wind up toy saying the same thing without any mature development in a conversation.
The main issue is if Bishop Ambrose is truly a baptized catholic, which he is, everything changes in their fixed narration. This is what they arrogantly do not want to see nor change their selective thinking. Agenda? You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.
Bottom line. Bishop Ambrose is a valid catholic, valid catholic priest, and a valid bishop.
The socialist left will need to see who they are fighting like Paul persecuting the Church until he was knocked off his horse by Christ to become St. Paul and serve the Church.
Same here with these new pharisaical pauls refusing to hear Christ and be knock off their horse.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 16:30:50 GMT
Machabees, You just went on a rant, but didn’t answer my question. Please answer my question. I did! You just want to run around in circles. Remove your blind glasses. Can't keep repeating the same thing and you refuse to listen. I have spent hours and long nights trying to help you, even years dealing with your blindness. No more. I'm done with you.
Does someone else want to deal with him? I'm done.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 16:39:35 GMT
Machabees,
Would it be acceptable for the Kentucky Fathers to invite Bishop Fellay to come to the Our Lady of Mount Carmel Seminary to ordain the seminarians prior to his return to the positions of Archbishop Lefebvre?
I don’t want an essay from you; just a “yes” or “no”.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 17:16:05 GMT
Machabees and Jonathan, Would it be acceptable for the Kentucky Fathers to invite Bishop Fellay to come to the Our Lady of Mount Carmel Seminary to ordain the seminarians prior to his return to the positions of Archbishop Lefebvre? Same anwser for +williamson. Go back and read it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 17:44:42 GMT
Ecclesia militans- If all the trad bishops are pushing modernism *you agree to* and refuse to ordain real priests for the future, is that an emergency?
what do you do?
What does the church teach?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 21:01:32 GMT
Machabees and Jonathan, Would it be acceptable for the Kentucky Fathers to invite Bishop Fellay to come to the Our Lady of Mount Carmel Seminary to ordain the seminarians prior to his return to the positions of Archbishop Lefebvre? Same anwser for +williamson. Go back and read it. Very sad. Your position compromises the Resistance position. You may as well join Bishop Williamson's false resistance.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 21:09:02 GMT
Ecclesia militans- If all the trad bishops are pushing modernism *you agree to* and refuse to ordain real priests for the future, is that an emergency? what do you do? What does the church teach? You keep the Faith without compromise. You do not join in public worship with those who have compromised on doctrines of Faith and Morals either through commission or omission. God will hold the compromised bishops accountable and not the simple priests and laity. Just like God does not hold accountable a barren married couple for not having children, he will not hold the Kentucky Fathers accountable for not ordaining seminarians.
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