Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 0:19:32 GMT
Yes agreed you have kept this about the consecration by Cardinal Slipyj, EM, but in all due respect this thread isn't about your claims, rather about Fr Pfeiffer's latest conference on the matter, hence what the comments should be on. I'm not interested in your views at this point. I am wondering however if the Orthodox Bishops are still valid, if they ever messed with the ceremony and ritual (please excuse the lack of terminology)? Fr Pfeiffer points out the church has always taught they are and can be accepted back in to the Catholic church fairly easily. Or have I misinterpreted? It is not my view or opinion. It is fact that Ambrose Moran was not consecrated a bishop by Cardinal Slipyj.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 1:34:29 GMT
That's fine, ok! But what is the fact of teaching about the Orthodox validity?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 2:01:22 GMT
That's fine, ok! But what is the fact of teaching about the Orthodox validity? How is this relevant?
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Nov 20, 2018 2:25:22 GMT
Yes agreed you have kept this about the consecration by Cardinal Slipyj, EM, but in all due respect this thread isn't about your claims, rather about Fr Pfeiffer's latest conference on the matter, hence what the comments should be on. I'm not interested in your views at this point. I am wondering however if the Orthodox Bishops are still valid, if they ever messed with the ceremony and ritual (please excuse the lack of terminology)? Fr Pfeiffer points out the church has always taught they are and can be accepted back in to the Catholic church fairly easily. Or have I misinterpreted? In one of Fr. Hewko's sermons, I don't remember which one unfortunately, he said that the Orthodox have valid masses, but it is a mortal sin for Catholics to go to their masses.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Nov 20, 2018 12:22:52 GMT
What Fr. Pfeiffer has said about Bp. Moran's consecration by Cardinal Slipyj is that: it is "probable".
This is similar to what he said in his first conference on the topic: So by considering Father's words, we can safely say a doubt still remains in that there is a probability of its occurrence [an episcopal consecration by Card. Slipyj] but there is a sufficient lack of evidence to say this event occurred with certitude.
The 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia tells us that with respect to doubt: So it seems a fair statement based on Father's words to observe that a doubt still remains as to a consecration by the Catholic Cardinal Slipyj.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 12:33:16 GMT
What Fr. Pfeiffer has said about Bp. Moran's consecration by Cardinal Slipyj is that: it is "probable".
This is similar to what he said in his first conference on the topic: So by considering Father's words, we can safely say a doubt still remains in that there is a probability of its occurrence [an episcopal consecration by Card. Slipyj] but there is a sufficient lack of evidence to say this event occurred with certitude.
The 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia tells us that with respect to doubt: So it seems a fair statement based on Father's words to observe that a doubt still remains as to a consecration by the Catholic Cardinal Slipyj. "Based on Father's words" is the qualifier. However, Fr. Pfeiffer is wrong. There is moral certitude that Ambrose Moran was not consecrated a bishop by Cardinal Slipyj.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 12:35:54 GMT
Given that Ambrose Moran lied about his consecration by Cardinal Slipyj, why should this man be held credible in anything else important he says? Is this the type of man we want as part of the Resistance? I hope we all agree that we neither need him nor want him.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Nov 20, 2018 12:43:08 GMT
Given that Ambrose Moran lied about his consecration by Cardinal Slipyj, why should this man be held credible in anything else important he says? Is this the type of man we want as part of the Resistance? I hope we all agree that we neither need him nor want him.
All that I said was that his consecration by Cardinal Slipyj was still in doubt.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 12:54:23 GMT
Given that Ambrose Moran lied about his consecration by Cardinal Slipyj, why should this man be held credible in anything else important he says? Is this the type of man we want as part of the Resistance? I hope we all agree that we neither need him nor want him.
All that I said was that his consecration by Cardinal Slipyj was still in doubt.
I know what you wrote. I am not referring to you specifically. There is no doubt, though, because: 1) Ambrose Moran claims he was consecrated in 1976 by Cardinal Slipyj, Bishop Borecky, and Bishop Dimitri: ambrosemoran.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/ambrose0022.jpg 2) Ambrose Moran claims Bishop Borecky wrote him a letter dated August 26, 1976 (shortly after the alleged consecration) that he, Ambrose Moran, was appointed the successor to Cardinal Slipyj: ambrosemoran.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/ambrose0021.jpg 3) The following letter dated June 30, 1980 was written by William Moran to Bishop Borecky: www.ecclesiamilitans.com/Letter_Fr._Moran_June_30_1980.pdfThis letter was obtained from Fr. Bohdan Bilinksy of the Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Toronto who found it in the archives of the eparchy: www.ucet.ca/chancery_193.htmIn this letter: a) William Moran addresses himself as a priest (Fr. Moran) and not as a Bishop. b) William Moran requests a reference letter from Bishop Borecky, one of the bishops that Ambrose Moran claims consecrated him, to join a schismatic Orthodox sect (Orthodox Church of America), so that he may finally be canonically regularized. Note: The letter is point #2 above was not found in the Eparchy of Toronto archives. 4) Orthodox priest, Fr. Tosi, confirms that William Moran applied to the Orthodox Church of America as an archimandrite (honorary title for Eastern Catholic and Orthodox priests) but was not accepted: www.ecclesiamilitans.com/2018/07/31/the-june-30-1980-letter-of-william-moran-to-bishop-borecky/oca.org/about/chancery-staff
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Nov 20, 2018 13:20:04 GMT
What Fr. Pfeiffer has said about Bp. Moran's consecration by Cardinal Slipyj is that: it is "probable".
This is similar to what he said in his first conference on the topic: So by considering Father's words, we can safely say a doubt still remains in that there is a probability of its occurrence [an episcopal consecration by Card. Slipyj] but there is a sufficient lack of evidence to say this event occurred with certitude.
The 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia tells us that with respect to doubt: So it seems a fair statement based on Father's words to observe that a doubt still remains as to a consecration by the Catholic Cardinal Slipyj.
Fr. Pfeiffer moved on in the conference to discuss Bp. Moran's episcopal consecration in the Holy Protection Cathedral in Chicago in 1976. This document was found by Ecclesia Militans in the cathedral's archives [which EM gave to Fr. Pfeiffer in 2015]:
This certificate, deemed by the proper authorities to be genuine, states:
The lower half of the document has eight signatories.
In the conference, Fr. Pfeiffer notes that three of those signing bishops were Catholic bishops. Father mentions two by name: Bp. Joseph Raya and Bp. Joseph Tawil.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 17:43:41 GMT
Given that Ambrose Moran lied about his consecration by Cardinal Slipyj, why should this man be held credible in anything else important he says? Is this the type of man we want as part of the Resistance? I hope we all agree that we neither need him nor want him. This is a rash judgement and detraction. Ecclesia Militans, you also said in a previous post: “T here is moral certitude that Ambrose Moran was not consecrated a bishop by Cardinal Slipyj.” This is not true. There is not “moral certitude” that he wasn’t, for there is also evidence in support of his consecration by Cardinal Slipyj. There is: 1) the Antemission of Bp. Ambrose that is signed by Cardinal Slipyj 2) a 1976 letter in the archives of Holy Protection Cathedral from Bishop Gregory to all the other bishops of the UAOC inviting the other bishops of that synod to come together to perform a ceremony of confirming the episcopal consecration of Bp. Ambrose who, says Bishop Gregory in the letter, had already been consecrated by Cardinal Slipyj in Rome. 3) a connection between Bp. Ambrose and Cardinal Slipyj which is seen in an e-mail on the Ecclesia Militans website from Don Andriy Soletskyy at St. Sophia Church in Rome, back on August 25, 2018, in which Don Andriy says: “ We have found instead a letter from Bishop Boretskyy to Patriarch Josyph [Slipyj], containing a petition for acceptance under his jurisdiction of Bishop of the Ukrainian Orthodox Autocephalous Church in America Mykolay Ilnytskyy with two priests, Ivan Ropke and William Moran, from November 29, 1974. In a draft of the response letter Patriarch Josyph [Slipyj] asks Boretskyy to send the original documents and to find out more about the canonical status of the requesters.”
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 17:47:20 GMT
"Fr. Pfeiffer moved on in the conference to discuss Bp. Moran's episcopal consecration in the Holy Protection Cathedral in Chicago in 1976. This document was found by Ecclesia Militans in the cathedral's archives [which EM gave to Fr. Pfeiffer in 2015]:"
I did not receive the Orthodox episcopal consecration certificate from the Cathedral's archives. I received it from Archbishop Gregory of the Genuine Orthodox Church of America. Archbishop Gregory received it from Ambrose Moran who presented it as evidence that he was consecrated an Orthodox bishop.
This past summer (of 2018) I inquired again at the Holy Protection Cathedral about the authenticity of the document and was told that they have no record of this document or of the consecration taking place. If you are interested in finding out for yourself, contact Tatiana Chevchenko at: Pokrovachurch@gmail.com.
"The lower half of the document has eight signatories. In the conference, Fr. Pfeiffer notes that three of those signing bishops were Catholic bishops. Father mentions two by name: Bp. Joseph Raya and Bp. Joseph Tawil."
1) Fr. Pfeiffer needs to prove that the document truly states "Joseph Raya" and "Joseph Tawil". 2) Fr. Pfeiffer needs to prove that, even if the document clearly states these two names, the two people are truly the two Catholic bishops being identified as such. 3) Ambrose Moran would have never presented and Archbishop Gregory of the Genuine Church of America would have never accepted a certificate with Catholic bishops as co-consecrators as he, Archbishop Gregory, is staunchly Orthodox. 4) The main consecrator on the certificate is Bishop Hryhoriy Ohiychuk, He was always Orthodox. Why would he need Catholic co-consecrators for an Orthodox bishop? 5) Why would Catholic bishops join Orthodox bishops to consecrate another Orthodox bishop? 6) Why is this the first time that Fr. Pfeiffer is bringing this up?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 18:02:46 GMT
Given that Ambrose Moran lied about his consecration by Cardinal Slipyj, why should this man be held credible in anything else important he says? Is this the type of man we want as part of the Resistance? I hope we all agree that we neither need him nor want him. This is a rash judgement and detraction. Ecclesia Militans, you also said in a previous post: “T here is moral certitude that Ambrose Moran was not consecrated a bishop by Cardinal Slipyj.” This is not true. There is not “moral certitude” that he wasn’t, for there is also evidence in support of his consecration by Cardinal Slipyj. There is: 1) the Antemission of Bp. Ambrose that is signed by Cardinal Slipyj 2) a 1976 letter in the archives of Holy Protection Cathedral from Bishop Gregory to all the other bishops of the UAOC inviting the other bishops of that synod to come together to perform a ceremony of confirming the episcopal consecration of Bp. Ambrose who, says Bishop Gregory in the letter, had already been consecrated by Cardinal Slipyj in Rome. 3) a connection between Bp. Ambrose and Cardinal Slipyj which is seen in an e-mail on the Ecclesia Militans website from Don Andriy Soletskyy at St. Sophia Church in Rome, back on August 25, 2018, in which Don Andriy says: “ We have found instead a letter from Bishop Boretskyy to Patriarch Josyph [Slipyj], containing a petition for acceptance under his jurisdiction of Bishop of the Ukrainian Orthodox Autocephalous Church in America Mykolay Ilnytskyy with two priests, Ivan Ropke and William Moran, from November 29, 1974. In a draft of the response letter Patriarch Josyph [Slipyj] asks Boretskyy to send the original documents and to find out more about the canonical status of the requesters.” 1) This is weak evidence. Ambrose Moran forged documents, so what would stop him from forging an antemission? 2) Where is this letter? Present it. Why would Ambrose Moran need to be consecrated again after Cardinal Slipyj allegedly had already did it? Bishop Gregory of the UAOC was always Orthodox. My second inquiry at the Holy Protection Cathedral could not even present evidence of the consecration itself. 3) What does this connection prove other than what it states? Note that the letter response was in a draft state. Likely it was never sent. There is no record of it in the Toronto Eparchy archives. And read this: 1) Ambrose Moran claims he was consecrated in 1976 by Cardinal Slipyj, Bishop Borecky, and Bishop Dimitri: ambrosemoran.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/ambrose0022.jpg 2) Ambrose Moran claims Bishop Borecky wrote him a letter dated August 26, 1976 (shortly after the alleged consecration) that he, Ambrose Moran, was appointed the successor to Cardinal Slipyj: ambrosemoran.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/ambrose0021.jpg 3) The following letter dated June 30, 1980 was written by William Moran to Bishop Borecky: www.ecclesiamilitans.com/Letter_Fr._Moran_June_30_1980.pdfThis letter was obtained from Fr. Bohdan Bilinksy of the Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Toronto who found it in the archives of the eparchy: www.ucet.ca/chancery_193.htmIn this letter: a) William Moran addresses himself as a priest (Fr. Moran) and not as a Bishop. b) William Moran requests a reference letter from Bishop Borecky, one of the bishops that Ambrose Moran claims consecrated him, to join a schismatic Orthodox sect (Orthodox Church of America), so that he may finally be canonically regularized. Note: The letter is point #2 above was not found in the Eparchy of Toronto archives. 4) Orthodox priest, Fr. Tosi, confirms that William Moran applied to the Orthodox Church of America as an archimandrite (honorary title for Eastern Catholic and Orthodox priests) but was not accepted: www.ecclesiamilitans.com/2018/07/31/the-june-30-1980-letter-of-william-moran-to-bishop-borecky/oca.org/about/chancery-staff
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Nov 20, 2018 19:37:55 GMT
In this recent sermon from the 11th of November, Fr. Hewko begins talking at around the 48:00 minute mark about Bp. Moran:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 22:27:59 GMT
"Fr. Pfeiffer moved on in the conference to discuss Bp. Moran's episcopal consecration in the Holy Protection Cathedral in Chicago in 1976. This document was found by Ecclesia Militans in the cathedral's archives [which EM gave to Fr. Pfeiffer in 2015]:"I did not receive the Orthodox episcopal consecration certificate from the Cathedral's archives. I received it from Archbishop Gregory of the Genuine Orthodox Church of America. Archbishop Gregory received it from Ambrose Moran who presented it as evidence that he was consecrated an Orthodox bishop. This past summer (of 2018) I inquired again at the Holy Protection Cathedral about the authenticity of the document and was told that they have no record of this document or of the consecration taking place. If you are interested in finding out for yourself, contact Tatiana Chevchenko at: Pokrovachurch@gmail.com. But you had this to say about the consecration certificate on your website back in November 2015: “ I contacted the Holy Protection Cathedral to verify the authenticity of this certificate. On Friday October 23, 2015 I received confirmation from the Cathedral that this certificate was indeed authentic. Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer was made aware of this confirmation. He then verified it himself on Tuesday October 27, 2015 when he made a visit to the Cathedral.” www.ecclesiamilitans.com/2015/11/01/concerning-bishop-ambrose-morans-episcopal-consecration/
|
|