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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 22:08:41 GMT
Ecclesia militans- If all the trad bishops are pushing modernism *you agree to* and refuse to ordain real priests for the future, is that an emergency? what do you do? What does the church teach? You keep the Faith without compromise. You do not join in public worship with those who have compromised on doctrines of Faith and Morals either through commission or omission. God will hold the compromised bishops accountable and not the simple priests and laity. Just like God does not hold accountable a barren married couple for not having children, he will not hold the Kentucky Fathers accountable for not ordaining seminarians. You didnt answer the question. Is that an emergency? What does the church teach in a emercency situation? Avoiding the question dosent help your case.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 22:32:39 GMT
You keep the Faith without compromise. You do not join in public worship with those who have compromised on doctrines of Faith and Morals either through commission or omission. God will hold the compromised bishops accountable and not the simple priests and laity. Just like God does not hold accountable a barren married couple for not having children, he will not hold the Kentucky Fathers accountable for not ordaining seminarians. You didnt answer the question. Is that an emergency? What does the church teach in a emercency situation? Avoiding the question dosent help your case. Emergency implies imminent danger. Therefore, it is not an emergency.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 22:38:04 GMT
I understand machbees is trying to say two things. 1 the sacraments come from the church not the priests or the bishops. 2 there is a sspx or feminate traditional cult in peoples mind and the church does not exist outside of it and God cant provide outside those betrayers.
so your stuck. Church cant grow. Its done. So is that an emergancy? Do you look outside that cult for God's answer or stay stupid and compliant?
It doesnt matter if it is +ambrose or some other valid bishop. Your contention overall is it must be from the sspx cult betrayers. Objectivity means nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 22:42:31 GMT
I understand machbees is trying to say two things. 1 the sacraments come from the church not the priests or the bishops. 2 there is a sspx or feminate traditional cult in peoples mind and the church does not exist outside of it and God cant provide outside those betrayers. Means your stuck. Church cant grow. Its done. So is that an emergancy? Do you look outside that cult for God's answer or stay stupid and compliant? It doesnt matter if it is +ambrose or some other valid bishop. Your contention overall is it must be from the sspx cult betrayers. Objectivity means nothing. It is not an emergency. It is not the responsibility of the simple priests and faithful to solve the problem. The answer is to keep praying for the bishops and holding out along with what I wrote above.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 22:44:04 GMT
You didnt answer the question. Is that an emergency? What does the church teach in a emercency situation? Avoiding the question dosent help your case. Emergency implies imminent danger. Therefore, it is not an emergency. The church is dying from no bishops providing life. That is not imminent danger?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 22:54:55 GMT
Emergency implies imminent danger. Therefore, it is not an emergency. The church is dying from no bishops providing life. That is not imminent danger? No. It is a danger but not imminent.
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Post by Nightowl on Jul 22, 2018 0:46:44 GMT
Machabees, You just went on a rant, but didn’t answer my question. Please answer my question. I did! You just want to run around in circles. Remove your blind glasses. Can't keep repeating the same thing and you refuse to listen. I have spent hours and long nights trying to help you, even years dealing with your blindness. No more. I'm done with you.
Does someone else want to deal with him? I'm done.
I will, but that means you have to stay out of it. I don't like essay questions or answers either.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 0:59:08 GMT
Same anwser for +williamson. Go back and read it. Very sad. Your position compromises the Resistance position. You may as well join Bishop Williamson's false resistance. I reject your mischaraterisation! Just because you refuse to understand something does not mean others are off a cliff.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 1:03:51 GMT
The church is dying from no bishops providing life. That is not imminent danger? No. It is a danger but not imminent. Shows you are not in touch with the crisis or have an agenda of your own.
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Post by Anon2 on Jul 22, 2018 2:10:35 GMT
Guys, the clock has struck midnight. If Williamson has subverted his Apostolic Mission then forget about him. This falling out among the English speaking anti-Deal faithful has done great harm across the globe. There are small fish in small countries that have gotten fried. South Korea for example. A faithful from that country was one of the first to set off the alarm. Where is he now? What happened to the TrueTrad website that came out of Manila? And Singapore, Australia and parts of the US and Canada? The clock has struck midnight.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 3:35:04 GMT
I understand machbees is trying to say two things. 1 the sacraments come from the church not the priests or the bishops. 2 there is a sspx or feminate traditional cult in peoples mind and the church does not exist outside of it and God cant provide outside those betrayers. so your stuck. Church cant grow. Its done. So is that an emergancy? Do you look outside that cult for God's answer or stay stupid and compliant? It doesnt matter if it is +ambrose or some other valid bishop. Your contention overall is it must be from the sspx cult betrayers. Objectivity means nothing. Correct, that is what I am trying to have a conversation about. The adamant refusal of these [socialist] bishops defined a new objective crisis in the Church.
The change of doctrine unrecognizable to the Church in the neo-sspx and faux pas created a red light to receive the 'normal' sacraments from them. However, if and when in an emergency situation can you go to them for confession when dying and Extreme Unction? Yes the Church says when under an emergency because the Church gives the service for salvation not the priest. It is a different situation necessitating a different end.
So the conversation is, can one go to them in the same emergency for ordinations? That is the question and the conversation not to be deflected or conflated. It is a real question the Church needed to answer hundred of times throughout history. Now we have to ask it now being in front us whether we like it or not. So what is the answer?
The Church says yes because it is the same emergency. The Church gives the service NOT the priest or bishop. Point - it is an emergency.
Lets make an example where it will apply. Take the sedevacantist bishop, Bishop Kelley. He is an adamant divider of the church one cannot go to his masses and receive sacraments in a normal way. But can you go to him in an emergency if you are dying and in need of emergency? Yes, because of the emergency. Because Bishop Kelley is a valid bishop. So, if Bishop Kelly was asked for an emergency ordination should he in conscience do it for the gave necessity of the Church and her mission? Yes he must under pain of sin regardless of his opinions or position against the Church. The existence of a bishop is for the existence of the Church and salvation of souls. To refuse this, like the faux pas bishops are doing, is a sin before God.
Now, what if Bishop Kelley added his opinion in front of the Church's need and said I will only ordain if you submit to the [errors] of sedevacantism? The answer for a Cathilic in NO! We will not sin before God for a need of the Church. What if Bishop Kelley said he will do it knowing the Church is dying and will temporarily put his opinions aside, no conditions of sin, and will do what the Church needs in the emergency? Then it is wholly Catholic and a valid ordination because the condition of sin from the Bishop is removed. That is what is being said here.
So for the Bishops of the neo-sspx or the faux pas, they must remove their sin before God even if it is temporary to effect the ordinations needed for the emergency of the Church. For these and any bishop not to help Her is more than a vagabond bishop, he is a reprobate refusing to give to God what they were consecrated for.
Their salvation depends on serving the Church to save souls...and for all future generations.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 4:04:14 GMT
Taking the conversation deeper, because that is where it is, the same question can be asked of any other VALID bishop (older novus ordo bishop, Thuc?, Ambrose, Sanborn...) because they are a VALID bishops. Period. It is objective. So long as they leave their sin against the Church, even if it is temporarily and even if they are still in mortal sin, it doesn't matter because it is the Church that gives the service and graces NOT the bishop.
Some have said that when ABL was consecrated a bishop the consecrator bishop was a mason. Meaning he was in mortal sin against he Chruch. It didn't even matter because he effected the consecration in the will and intention of the Church. Moreover there was a second Bishop con-consecrating that would have validated it anyway. That is the reason there are many bishops in the ceremony to remove any doubt.
The problem of our thinking is by the hodge-podge of the crisis no catholic studies their faith but only speculates what it is.
These are serious question in a serious crisis. Pray for the pope and our bishops of course. But do not put your head in the sand expecting a miracle to compound another sin of presumption against God. God asks us to make an effort. That's the point of the crisis...to put our eyes and will back on God.
Holy Scripture says a wise man is not wise unless he seeks counsel.
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Post by antonio on Jul 22, 2018 5:09:11 GMT
Ecclesia militans- If all the trad bishops are pushing modernism *you agree to* and refuse to ordain real priests for the future, is that an emergency? what do you do? What does the church teach? You keep the Faith without compromise. You do not join in public worship with those who have compromised on doctrines of Faith and Morals either through commission or omission. God will hold the compromised bishops accountable and not the simple priests and laity. Just like God does not hold accountable a barren married couple for not having children, he will not hold the Kentucky Fathers accountable for not ordaining seminarians. Are you saying that OLMC is barren for not ordaining seminarians?
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Post by antonio on Jul 22, 2018 5:24:55 GMT
Very sad. Your position compromises the Resistance position. You may as well join Bishop Williamson's false resistance. I reject your mischaraterisation! Just because you refuse to understand something does not mean others are off a cliff.Let me guess: The expression that someone is "off a cliff" is derived from a French idiom, which you have translated literally into English, and have used the translation here as if it is an American idiom. Correct? FYI -- "Just because (something) does not mean others are off a cliff" has utterly no basis or meaning in American English. So, if you are trying to make a point, the point is not made. Would you mind trying again, or are you happy with the current state of affairs, by which you are not understood?
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Post by antonio on Jul 22, 2018 5:44:45 GMT
Taking the conversation deeper, because that is where it is, the same question can be asked of any other VALID bishop (older novus ordo bishop, Thuc?, Ambrose, Sanborn...) because they are a VALID bishops. Period. It is objective. So long as they leave their sin against the Church, even if it is temporarily and even if they are still in mortal sin, it doesn't matter because it is the Church that gives the service and graces NOT the bishop.
Some have said that when ABL was consecrated a bishop the consecrator bishop was a mason. Meaning he was in mortal sin against he Chruch. It didn't even matter because he effected the consecration in the will and intention of the Church. Moreover there was a second Bishop con-consecrating that would have validated it anyway. That is the reason there are many bishops in the ceremony to remove any doubt.
The problem of our thinking is by the hodge-podge of the crisis no catholic studies their faith but only speculates what it is.
These are serious question in a serious crisis. Pray for the pope and our bishops of course. But do not put your head in the sand expecting a miracle to compound another sin of presumption against God. God asks us to make an effort. That's the point of the crisis...to put our eyes and will back on God.
Holy Scripture says a wise man is not wise unless he seeks counsel.
I have to admit, it is VERY difficult to understand what you write, Machabees. But I'd like to thank you for clearing something up for me. For not until I read this post, had I been able to see that the sin of presumption against God consists in expecting a miracle! And one expects a miracle by putting one's head in the sand! Which therefore is another sin of presumption against God! Which makes TWO sins of presumption against God: 1- expecting a miracle and 2- putting one's head in the sand! Which you don't think is a good idea, and neither do I, so we are in agreement, maybe. Thank you for clearing this up. But do not put your head in the sand expecting a miracle to compound another sin of presumption against God.
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